Generally speaking, the book presentations are in Antwerp. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. But yes, I did bring in a professional for a while. And she's, you know, "Chiuso, chiuso." I spoke to the auctioneers quite a bit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, 2004 or '05, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. [00:02:03]. I read that it's your first business involvement with an art gallery, or an arts institution. Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. Find Clifford Schorer's phone number, address, and email on Spokeo, the leading online directory for contact information. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you ever buy them in the mail, like kids did? CLIFFORD SCHORER: They werethey had the English family connections to allow them to continue to trade when others were forced to do business with people that were, shall we say, less than scrupulous, and so that was a lucky break in a sense. And, obviously, I can continue that when I put something on loan by going into the room and listening to people talk about it, you know, and that adds to the experience around the art. It's a segue into theyou know, what was going on at that time. Have there been important dealers that you've worked with that have influenced. So, yes, there's a plaque to my grandfather. You know. Is that something that you are thinking about? JUDITH RICHARDS: Good morning. [00:32:00]. And I remember saying, you know, These are the best Chinese export objects that you can buy, you know, in America, because these were very much American market pieces. The Spanish state effectively seized one of them, and I got the other one, so I got an export license for the other one. You want toyou want to sort ofyou know, you want to have a completely catalogued collection, with every example of, you know, canceled, non-cancelled. It was, you know, it was Rome. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. But, yeah, I mean, it's often those tables of five curators that are the most entertaining, you know, and I get to be a gadfly and just listen; you know, I just sit in the background. Solely responsible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, we didn't get that far because they were literally setting it up when I arrived. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. You know, et cetera. I do the Arts of Europe Advisory, but that's reallythey've asked me to join and do more, but because of the time commitment at Worcester, I really haven't been able to. I'mI went to the MFA, you know, maybe a year and a half ago, and I have a major picture on view in their Koch Gallery. Clifford Schorer and Judith Olch Richards have reviewed this transcript. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah, which I willbecause, basically, now that I have to move out of my last warehouse, I need very purpose-built storage for my own collection, so I will probably build something that's large enough that I can accommodate other collectors if they need to. JUDITH RICHARDS: So have you been collecting in some other, noncompetitive area? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, some incrediblethere was an estimate of the marketplace, half a million paintings, and the paleontological specimens of that scale are four, five [laughs], yes. I livedmy youth was split between Brooklyn Heights, Massapequa, Long Island, and Martha's Vineyard, with probably more time on Martha's Vineyard than anywhere else, where my aunt livedmy great-aunt, actually. [00:20:00] Yes, there was, of course, The Massacre of The Innocents by Rubens, which made 45 million, and two days later, for a relative bargain, a van Dyck of that painting, done in the studio at the same time, came on the marketa drawing of that painting. [Laughs.] [00:58:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, that's hard. Schooner - Nassau, 1898/99. Sometimes they're inverted, but almost universally they're. So my mother and father divorced when I was very young. So it was more aboutit was more about the business of the trade of these things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, justI suddenly wasn't hearing the mic. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I thought it was great, yes. We have a sort of oath that we take about, you know, things we have personal interests in or things like that. The US family who owned it believed it was a 20th-century reproduction. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is it just the two of you doing this major part of the work? Well, the word was out that they were closing the gallery. Do you have all your collections in a database, or what kind of inventory do you keep? The shareholders did very well by the real estate, but the business, by that point, was, I think, sort of put on the back burner after 2008, then when they didn't have a premises, they built themselves a new and rather expensive rental premises, and the rent and the costs there were quite high. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the story is, I would say, more humorous than anything else, because my thought was that someday, when I was an old lonely geezer, I would have an antique shop, or I would sell bric-a-brac. And what was happening in the world at those moments that would allow a ship to come back from the Orient filled with, you know, ballastplates as ballast. It was called the Professors ProgramUniversity Professors Program. You know, everything. So I came to that same point, that same impasse, in stamp collecting, where, okay, I have every single U.S. issue, except for these 27. He says, "You want to have lunch tomorrow?". We should close the museum tomorrow and give everybody that walks by on the sidewalk $400 and just call it a day, because that's what the budget is. It wasthank you for doing that." And you wouldn't have enduring liabilities for all the things that you've sold in the past because the company would cease to exist. And I went down there to go to my old cube [laughs], and it was still there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes. Just one. I mean, I would say, JUDITH RICHARDS: You were stillyou were living in the house that you bought. So, yes, I mean, I'm very, very grateful that I did all of those things. [Laughs.] [00:16:00]. But the scholarship at the time said, "Wait a minute, that looks like a preparatory drawing for that painting," which then changed the attribution of the painting to a better attribution. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, that's the period of time, JUDITH RICHARDS: you were really developing. JUDITH RICHARDS: Or acquire specifically in conversation with a museum curator for the institution. Clifford Schorer says he loaned Rendall an unspecified amount of money in 2012, and she backed the. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was fine with that because, for me, it was aesthetically pleasing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The MFA. I knew that they had good examples of certain things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I was livingI was in Paris a lot. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. It was Naples, [Jusepe de] Ribera, [Luca] Giordano at theyou know, Giordano at the beginning; Ribera towards thetowards the middle. 1:00 p.m.4:00 p.m. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Right. I never thought, frankly, it was a field of complexity enough to warrant even reading about it. I mean, you know, recently we did some work on Joseph Wright of Derby, and Cleveland bought our Joseph Wright of Derby. But if we can say, Engage with this art on your terms. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I bought a lot of blue-and-white from Kangxi and Qianlong because that, again, was what was plentiful in the New England homes. JUDITH RICHARDS: And is there official paperwork that goes along with that? JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, that's so interesting. This would've beenI was 17 when I left. I was there, and it was fun, and it was interesting. He lived until I was 13 years old. Winslow Homer Casting, Number Two, 1894. And you know, in those days, there were more sales than there are now. Web. And you know, I got to know him less and less during that period. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Hands on. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was the interest in traveling through those countries? And then I would see the object resurface with a new price tag on it. She goes away, and she brings back a photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, a modern color photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, with them excavating this head. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think who else. I probably should, but, you know. It was one of those years where you go home completely dejected. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that similar tois that situation similar to other galleries in London that have once had 40 employees in the field and now are reduced to this kind of more focused business? It was sort of the bookends of the exhibition. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. JUDITH RICHARDS: people educating you in some way about the field? You know, from the slaves of West Africa, to the sugar, to the rum, to the plates, to the spices. So, yes, there werethere's the collection that, had I unlimited wealth, I would have acquired. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, let's remember to get back to that. So I've sold off most of my warehouses. JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. A picture should not reappear three times [laughs] on the market. So I would say that's probably the only piece of advice I can have, is that you have to be much more object-focused, learn as much as you can about that object, and try as much as possible to ignore the catalogue entry that shows Chairman Mao by Andy Warhol next to Leonardo da Vinci next to the so-called lot that you're about to buy, and draws these amazing marketing inferences that, you know, you will be like the Medici if you buy this thing. No, no, theyI mean, but they did have goodthey had the head of Unum Provident Insurance. And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. Absolutely. And it sounds like you had a much broader approach, or deeper approach. And I was still trying to buy, you know, what I could buy with a little bit of money in the stamps and coins world. JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: You don't recall anyone educating you about how to look? His realist works present scenes from the Civil War, fishing expeditions, and moments of everyday life in the United States, all genres that helped work to establish a . I'm at my office; I'm looking the Strozzi up, and I see Worcester Art Museum, and then it dawned on me, Wait a minute, they also have that Piero di Cosimo. You know. I would think that you did have a lust for the object, with all the objects you've accumulated. I mean, there were 20th-century and 19th-century fakes galore, everywhere you look. I mean, I would certainly still be able to collect, and probably more successfully, because I would be focused like a laser beam on sort of one thing, you know, one idea. So in this case, we were able to do something which German museumsGerman state museums with historical arthave traditionally said no to. Have they always been. So the painting ended up going to auction at Sotheby's, with a lower estimate. Clifford Schorer, a Boston-based collector, forgot to bring a present for the party he was attending, so he stopped by a bookstore that sold collectables on . I don't want to do anything fancy." But, you know, the other trip that really comes to mind recentlyand, again, it's in a totally unrelated field. It's the same sort of, you know, psychological idea. The circle was so small that you were sitting at a table with everybody that could be interested in that same object, at the same table, and you could actually talk to all of them. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that the firstso you said that was the first painting? He's a good director. This recipe for Air Fryer Green Beans is perfect if you want a simple, side dish with less than 5 ingredients and minimal prep. We did a Baroque-style porcelain fireplace by a Japanese artist named [Katsuyo] Aoki, this amazingly modern, white porcelain, beautiful fireplace. So I called my friend at Sotheby's, and I said, "What's the story?" They were very, very strong. The discovery hinges on the unlikely meeting of two men: Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer who specializes in recovering the lost works of Old Masters, and Brainerd Phillipson, a. He seems really smart." And if the auction house can earncan tell a client, "Well, we're not going to charge you anything; we'll charge the buyer. Clifford passed away on month day 1984, at age 67 at death place, North Carolina. Schorer also recalls Anna Cunningham; George Abrams; Sydney Lewis; Chris Apostle; Nancy Ward Neilson; Jim Welu, as well as Rita Albertson; Tanya Paul; Maryan Ainsworth; Thomas Leysen; Johnny Van Haeften; Otto Naumann; and Konrad Bernheimer, among others. Clifford owns the following phone numbers: (617) 262-0166 (Verizon New England, Inc), (617) 469-5654. I said, you know, "That's incredible.". CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, there are people who make it a life's pursuit, and they put a team together and they go out every summer, and I'd love to do that, but I don't have time in life to do that, so. But I don't think she'sI think she's not an Italian native. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, it wasn't expected. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because they seemed cheap? But that would be locally; like, if an opportunity arose, I would go; I would look; I would buy something at an auction. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. And she got tired [00:20:02]. So, you know, in a sense, there was ajust a moment, and that momentif that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have bought the company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, you know, there's still an auction wholesale-to-retail spread more because the presentation is slipshod and fast, and, you know, you're in a group of merchandise that goes across the counter on the same day. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, most of that's quite simple. And then you have this, you know, wonderfulbut that wasn't, you know, this kind of a symposium, I think, wasmaybe it was more to coax people into the idea of collecting as an achievable thing, which is what I hope my words were about, which is basically, you know, I'm no one, with no particular education, and I come to it with an open pair of eyeballs, and I've had a great time. I mean, I pointed it out, and he bought it for the museum, and now it's, you knowit's an extremely interesting thing about how these ideas disseminate. So, yeah. I meanso I had a partner in Montreal. You know, fill in the blank; provenance issues, you know. That market is extremely weak now, and, you know, in a way, it's good comeuppance, because there was a long period of time when all the boats were lifted by the tide, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I said, "Well, what does that mean, 'involved'?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: And these folks were traders. [00:56:00]. Like the bestyou know, the very important people in the orbit of the greatest, and very, very good quality; I mean the best quality that there is. And so we've certainlywe've done a very strong Pre-Raphaelite program; we've done a very strong early 20th-century program; we are not really. So my grandparents, whom I adoredmy grandfather and grandmotherthey lived on Long Island, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They lived on Long Island in a town called Freeport. There's a plaque to my grandfather, dedicated to my grandfather, but it doesn't say anything about me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. No question about that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." Then I went away to boarding schools. This was something that you were aware of. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. No. Did that kind ofdid you ever look back for your family there? JUDITH RICHARDS: because of these paintings? But Professor Wiggins was ahe was, I think, the head of Fidelity's either Magellan Fund or Puritan Fund. His paintings cover a wide range - from the Civil War to rural hamlets and a multitude of seascapes with the ocean and . It's astonishing. arugula, potato and green bean salad . JUDITH RICHARDS: everything that's going on. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I mean, I can say more about that, but I can't say more about that for litigation purposes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And Konrad Bernheimer. And my maternal grandmother, Ruth, was still living. Then I went back off to high school. Had you been involved with other institutions before then? JUDITH RICHARDS: So you can't complain about having to keep your home dark. So then when you put thewhatever works you lend to institutions, do they borrow also the supporting works? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, no. [00:45:59]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: no, no, I agree. And the focus was much more British 20th century. So I went to the booth, and I talked to them about the Procaccini, and they didn't know who I was, and I basically wanted to keep it that way. So, no. But it hammered down; I lost it, you know, and thought no more of it. We drove my van, actually. I remember these place names. Investments. It was amazing. You know, what our task is, I think, at Agnew's is to showand, you know, we sound like a broken record, because every dealer says the same thingbut is to show that you can have that one great Old Master in your kitchen, you know, in your dining area, you know, the food still life. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. It's like a girl reappearing three times on the singles market. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, my dollar would go much farther if I wasif I was, shall we say, buying at the root and not the branch. And then send it away andI'm trying to remember who did the book. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So, you know, I hope that's really my contribution in that context. They have, you knowone of the greatest mosaics in America is hidden behind a coat check. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, you're new; Anthony's new. She's great. So I wrote that program in a month. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. And one professor in particular became a very close friend. I would just go up and talk to them, and we would talk for half an hour, and I'd walk away. JUDITH RICHARDS: and at the Worcester Art Museum. He says, "No, I didn't." JUDITH RICHARDS: What did you call it? And so, yeah, I mean, there were a number of things, a number of hats that I had to shed to sort of, I think, stay within what. [Laughs.] 3) Example 2: Create New Variable Based On Other Columns Using transform () F I went to Thessalonica; I got in a rental car. I mean, you know, I bought Byzantine crucifixes, you know, just because, you know, I was there. So for the average buyer, philosophically thinking about that, they think, Okay, well, I'm going to sell this, and I'm not going to pay a commission. So they're happy to watch us fight over the garbage. Judith Olch Richards (1947- ) is former executive director of iCI in New York, New York. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Only incidental to paintings. Yeah, about a year. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] ], JUDITH RICHARDS: At what pointat what point did you think about putting aside, possibly in storage, or selling that first Chinese porcelain collection? If there are other such wonderful stories to tell, keep that in mind; we'll come back to it. I don't want to say thatI don't want to take anything away from the scholars who do serious scholarship, because what I'm doing is really applying an acuity of eye to a question, and that's a very, very tiny aspect. The mission changed; the vision statement changed; the facilities are undergoing changes. I went to Harvard, I said, "I've got to get the microfilm for the Medici Archive." I thought for sure this is someyes, this is some Renaissance, you know, late Renaissance thing, or even early Baroque thing, that, you know, is amazing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't want to slight anybody if they think they played that role in my life, but it was a very solitary pursuit. JUDITH RICHARDS: So that really transformed the Worcester Art Museum. And those days are now over, because the auction companies have created a broader market. I'm trying to remember the estimate; I think the estimate was either [$]2 to 3 million, or 1.5 to 2.5, but it was very enticing compared to the asking price. And you know, for me, when I go back and look at them later, I can laugh at myself, you know. And I remember talking about that object for months to everybody and anybody. [00:12:00]. I mean, my rooms were very dark. So, you know, as you say, you know, as we were talking about yesterday, that intersection of conception and craft. You know, there are certainly moments in the '60s and '70s when scholarship might have been a little weaker, and they missed something, but in general, right after the war, when everyone else was profiteering, the firm didn't. [00:26:02]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So they have nowthey have now one of the four most-complete ofin the world, and they have the biggest, I believe. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. For an angel, I thought this was [laughs] such an unusual thing, to give them such a worldly attribute, you know, almost a peasant, worldly attribute. So, all of my companies are project companies; they only make money if my projects are executed and are successful. That's the [laughs] sort of Latinate spelling. [00:28:00]. And again, I mean, I don'tbecause it's not a family legacy business for me; I'm not planning on handing this off to a son, so I have to think very carefully about what the next generation of the Agnew's company will be. I mean, there were many instances in smaller museums when you just said, "Look, you know, what do you need?" [00:08:00]. JUDITH RICHARDS: She lives in Italy though? It didn't matter to me at all. An art expert spotted it was signed by renowned American landscape painter Winslow Homer. No, no. Did you ever imagine focusing your entire life on thison collectingin every aspect? Look at that in Paris a lot everybody and anybody collections in a totally unrelated field those... Was 20 hours a week at the beginning going on at that time you knowone of the greatest in... Talk for half an hour, and it was 20 hours a week at Worcester. 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